this was duplicated in another section

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2010 10:45PM by dcrector.

And it shows up again, in another section. Free advertising for the MSPA.

Don't pay to shop! :-)

To sum it up for newbies, it's twaddle. You don't need their blessing to be a good shopper.

People with gold can be good shoppers or bad shoppers. People with silver can be good shoppers or bad shoppers. People with no certifications can be good shoppers or bad shoppers.

No one NEEDS the MSPA's blessing to do a good job shopping. The "ore-laden" are not better shoppers just because they sat through a seminar or DVD. Shoppers need attention to detail; good grammar, spelling, and punctuation; timeliness, follow through, and volition.

No one needs their wallet opened and excised of $125. The info is all on the net, for free. People just need to take advantage of it, instead of being taken advantage of.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2010 03:53AM by dee shops.

Volition as a noun or verb, Dee?

I am one of those that is in favor of the existence of certification. I think it can benefit people as shoppers and I think it had value for some people. Operative word is 'some' - but to say that it has no value at all, for anyone, is unfair - to say that it has no value to you - that is fine and I would support that statement and your right to make it.

A verb, of course, Mickey. Otherwise I would call it "violation." :-) We are going to have to disagree on the value of certification. I personally do not believe anyone NEEDS it. Now, if the MSPA wants to start giving it away for free, then perhaps I could be persuaded to change my mind. Otherwise, I just don't see the need for anyone to spend that kind of $$$$ for jobs that pay what MS'ing pays for the greater masses of shoppers shopping out there in shopperland.

I don't know if we have to agree to disagree though - I agree, nobody NEEDS certification. All of the tools that anybody needs to be a great shopper are available, for free. But I maintain that the vast majority of people do not want to do the leg work involved in this, to get where you and I are, "for free".

Let me back up - Dee, if I had to recommend a great shopper in Hawaii, I would not hesitate to think of you. You obviously have done your homework. You are educated, articulate, have a top-notch work ethic, and you understand this industry. It does not matter rather you have certification or not. But this all is from your own volition (as a verb, not a noun), and so many people just do not have that, or maybe they do, but they are willing to pay to get there faster. These are the people that would benefit from the certification process. It elevates the person who thinks, "Hey, I think I would like to MS" and maybe posts here one time, "Hi guys, how do I get jobs?" to someone that might have a prayer at doing a decent job on their first assignment.

Is MSPA necessary to pay for, ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! For people that want to figure it out on their own and have some common sense and a little bit of intelligence, it is all there for the taking - but some people need (or maybe want) help and explanation. That help might come in the form of certification. And heck, certification might make the difference between Sally who takes a job and realizes, "Oh my god, I have to actually go to the mall and work for my $10 - and &%! that sucks, I ain't doing it" to Sally who takes a job knowing what is entailed, why she is doing it, and what she is worth - and only takes jobs that are worth her while. I strongly believe that certification benefits this industry as a whole. Do I think the everyone needs to run out and get it - NO! Do I think that companies should blindly give preference to someone with certification - NO! Do I think that if forced to choose between two unknown entities, one with certification and one without - that the company might do well to choose the one with certification - well, yes... I do...

Not that it matters what I think. If you have looked into certification and decided it isn't for you - then great. But I still think it helps some shoppers to educate them. And that can only benefit us all.

MickeyB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't know if we have to agree to disagree
> though - I agree, nobody NEEDS certification.

:-)

> All
> of the tools that anybody needs to be a great
> shopper are available, for free. But I maintain
> that the vast majority of people do not want to do
> the leg work involved in this, to get where you
> and I are, "for free".

On this we are in complete agreement. But I would put you **way** ahead of me, given what I know of your shopper history and the kinds of shops you routinely complete. :-)



> Let me back up - Dee, if I had to recommend a
> great shopper in Hawaii, I would not hesitate to
> think of you. You obviously have done your
> homework. You are educated, articulate, have a
> top-notch work ethic, and you understand this
> industry.

Thanks so much. I so appreciate hearing that! :-) LOL. Don't we all?

> It does not matter rather you have
> certification or not. But this all is from your
> own volition (as a verb, not a noun), and so many
> people just do not have that, or maybe they do,
> but they are willing to pay to get there faster.
> These are the people that would benefit from the
> certification process. It elevates the person who
> thinks, "Hey, I think I would like to MS" and
> maybe posts here one time, "Hi guys, how do I get
> jobs?" to someone that might have a prayer at
> doing a decent job on their first assignment.

I'll give you this. I agree that for utter newbs it does show that they have a sense that this is a job, not a lark.


>
> Is MSPA necessary to pay for, ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!

:-)


> For people that want to figure it out on their own
> and have some common sense and a little bit of
> intelligence, it is all there for the taking

Absolutely.

> - but
> some people need (or maybe want) help and
> explanation. That help might come in the form of
> certification. And heck, certification might make
> the difference between Sally who takes a job and
> realizes, "Oh my god, I have to actually go to the
> mall and work for my $10 - and &%! that sucks, I
> ain't doing it" to Sally who takes a job knowing
> what is entailed, why she is doing it, and what
> she is worth - and only takes jobs that are worth
> her while.

It might. I am not convinced of that at this point in time. I do agree that there are too many of the former type of "Sally" out roaming shopperland. It comes up so often here...the unwillingness to do what it takes to learn the ropes. Every time someone comes here and asks for the big paying companies or who shops my city, I see red. Because I know they will not have the necessary
fortitude to keep carving through the forest for the long term...which we all have to do all the time in this profession. But, will a certification give that same person that fortitude? In my opinion, no. It may give them more understanding, but, in time, they still have to keep on going on their own.
Will certification give an utter newb a leg up over another utter newb without
certification? Sometimes, yes. But only sometimes, as there are also other utter newbs out there in shopperland who are motivated to do the job without having to spend lots of money to do so.




I strongly believe that certification
> benefits this industry as a whole. Do I think the
> everyone needs to run out and get it - NO! Do I
> think that companies should blindly give
> preference to someone with certification - NO! Do
> I think that if forced to choose between two
> unknown entities, one with certification and one
> without - that the company might do well to choose
> the one with certification - well, yes... I do...

I think the industry benefits from shoppers who do what they say when they say and do it well. If I were a scheduler and had only two utter newbs to pick from, and one had the gold, yes, I would probably pick that shopper. But
when they are looking at exoerienced shoppers, whether they have personally worked with that shopper or not, I just don't think that the gold makes any difference at all. Part of what irks me about it is the claims from the MSPA side that it does. Really, not for the majority of ore-laden shoppers I have interacted with who already had experience when getting mineral deposits next to their name. I have silver. I got it to get one shop that I wanted that I couldn't get without it. Ever since I did that one shop, I get EVERY job I apply for at this particular, narrative-heavy MSC, long pay cycle MSC. I don't think that has anything to do with having sliver, but rather that it has to do with the work I turned in. The silver took 15 minutes and took money (though only a small amount) from my pocket. I didn't learn anything new from it, and there was absolutely nothing that anyone with a scintilla of common sense could not have figured out without reading anything.
>
>
> Not that it matters what I think. If you have
> looked into certification and decided it isn't for
> you - then great. But I still think it helps some
> shoppers to educate them. And that can only
> benefit us all.

I will give you that it might help some newbs. But I think it should be marketed as such, and since the MSPA is SO gung ho on it, they should be eating the cost of bettering their own reputations via having a better trained shopper population, instead of asking shoppers to pay for the costs incurred.

I come at it from a different perspective. I do not believe that there is a discrete body of knowledge that can be taught in a day or a week or a month that will make individuals good shoppers. The pay that is offered shoppers generally does not attract folks with the organizational, interpersonal, motivational and educational skills needed to perform the job as independent contractors. Granted, we are all here, but why are we here? We are here because either we have a special additional financial goal to be met or because we are supplementing other income.

While I don't know what exactly is 'taught' in Gold Certification, my understanding of Silver Certification is that it is common sense stuff with an emphasis on being responsible. Great, fine and dandy, but is that even worth $15? Virtually every company you sign up with will beat into your head the importance of being responsible and many, many companies provide certifications before you take work to show you have at least minimal understanding of expectations.

If there was a body of knowledge essential for being a 'good shopper', one would think that it would be provided by the MSPA as free training through their website since it would directly help their membership. Instead, what is offered is shopper payment for 'services' when even the MSPA states "Am I guaranteed more work or higher pay if I am certified?
No, however the certification may give you an edge with some companies. Imagine two shoppers in the same town, with the same experience and work performance. One is certified and one is not. All other things being equal, the certification sets one shopper above the other with some companies."

What does not seem to be recognized by either companies or the MSPA is that successful shopping goes well beyond shop performance. Shoppers are managing small businesses, and that requires some modicum of scheduling, accounting, bookkeeping and clerical skills before you ever even get to the rest of it. I have always worked on the assumption that a person with the skills and motivation to be a good shopper/small business owner could also perform well in the employee workspace at a salary of at least $25,000 with benefits.

So I have to view certification--whether at the $15 or $125 level--as empty promises of success where there really are no shortcuts for personal skills and motivation.

OK, I thought was free advertising when I saw it posted in the other area, but I was OK with that, maybe some people would like to see it. But I'm offended to see it posted in multiple locations. This is a shopper board, for shoppers, by shoppers. The issue is not whether or not the MSPs will make money on the Gold Certification. It is that it is a advertisement for shoppers to spend money - AND it is posted in MULTIPLE PLACES on our shopper board. HIGHLY offensive.

Company Discussion? Benefit of the doubt, it got posted once incorrectly. Or not, and it got posted twice for good measure. My grandfather had a saying about not chewing his tobacco twice.

This post was to inform shoppers of the workshop. If there was a section on the forum for "events" that would probably be a more approporiate place.

It was not intended to be "free" advertisements. When I posted this I thought I would be able to delete one of the posts, but I can't figure out how to do that. If I knew who the moderator is I would request the post to be deleted. Having two posts was unintential and unnecessary.

If anyone knows how to delete or contact the moderator I would welcome that.

This forum is not moderated. The owner is Jacob Jans. You can edit your posts, by going back into them.

So, its deleted. But the discussion still remains. Thankfully for us shoppers Me thinks Doug though that deleting the initial post would excise the entire thread.

Doug, I have nothing against you personally, and have excellent 1:1feedback on you and your firm..but it doesn't meant I think free advertising is ok, and personally, I think the discussions here should remain shopper to shopper. When and IF Violation and other forums allow shoppers to monitor the MSC/Scheduler forums, then I will be more willing to see others interact here...

MickeyB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Volition as a noun or verb, Dee?
>
> I am one of those that is in favor of the
> existence of certification. I think it can benefit
> people as shoppers and I think it had value for
> some people. Operative word is 'some' - but to say
> that it has no value at all, for anyone, is unfair
> - to say that it has no value to you - that is
> fine and I would support that statement and your
> right to make it.


IMO, I think it is accurate to say it has no value and this is my reason for saying that. The idea of certification (not just for MSP's, but for anything) is to provide a basis on which it can be decided if one is qualified. Certification can not accurately say whether or not someone is a good shopper. As dee said, you will find good and bad in all levels of certification.

Certification may or may not show you who is a qualified shopper. Since there is no way to guarantee if a certified shopper is also a qualified shopper, certification really has no use.