Show me where you're taxed on the forgiveness of student loans? Where is it taken out of your paycheck? We give billions to other countries who don't even pay taxes here. Talk about free money.

I can float a few ideas here..... if paying back a loan makes it necessary to do without, or live less largely, or more cheaply, so be it. As a recovering perfectionist, I know how it just... grates... when things are not exactly as you want them to be. If someone is forced to choose between a nicer life and paying a student loan, they might suffer massively and intensely and constantly from the disparity between the life they wanted, and which college might have been expected to provide, and the realities of a pared-down life that they could have had without the college degree. They might not have a very bountiful life while they are repaying their student loan. But this is a risk of education, which does not and should not be expected to provide a particular lifestyle. I have pity for this condition because I live with another form of that perfectionism. I also believe that the fed does not need to pay for student loan debt, especially because the cost will eventually land on overburdened taxpayers.

What other reasons might student loan holders have for wanting the fed to take care of their student loan debt?

If the conversation ever reaches the idea that something means more if you pay for it, let me know.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2022 02:21AM by Shop-et-al.

I have read some pretty horrific stories about parents, grandparents as well as the student owing way more than the original loan years after paying. I am not able to get my head around that concept. I went to school in the 80's and had probably 20,000 in loans. I was able to pay it off when my parent passed away. Times have changed. Tuition is probably four times what I paid, even in-state tuition. Wages have not kept pace. I don't know the answer. Predatory loan practices have contributed. I personally have no issue with loan forgiveness. However, something has to happen so the practice of getting in over your head doesn't reoccur.

@maverick1. I had hoped you had your own psychoanalysis regarding one or two buckets, lol. Decades ago when I washed my car I always used 2 buckets. DH will wash our cars using one bucket (why?) as he loves to when time permits.

My opinion is a loan taken out by you requires payback by YOU. It is hilarious that some feel 10k forgiveness should be upped to 50k.

The money was a gift to universities from politicians. This is why there was no restrictions on the money. Universities increased fees and tuitions, to line their own pockets.

Wow. So much transpired since I last logged in...Let me start this reply by saying, I hope no one is being offended here. I'm trying to understand from others and I enjoying learning something new every day. I find it makes life more enjoyable. But I also get it. Not everyone can grasp a concept. Not everyone learns the same way.

There are so many points to make from the discussion but how about I share two high level key concepts;

ROI (Return on Investment) - or return on costs is a ratio between net income and investment. A high ROI means the investment's gains compare favorably to its cost. As a performance measure, ROI is used to evaluate the efficiency of an investment or to compare the efficiencies of several different investments.

Takeaway - Going to college, which may mean taking out a loan, should involve an individual performing at least a rudimentary form of ROI..."what am I going to get from this education and how will it help me?"

Risk Management - the identification, evaluation, and prioritization of risks followed by coordinated and economical application of resources to minimize, monitor, and control the probability or impact of unfortunate events or to maximize the realization of opportunities.

Takeaway - Going to college, which may mean taking out a loan, is a finite financial and time resource risk. You should ask yourself, "is this risk of my money and time worth it for the curriculum I am selecting?" Some individuals, such as Bill Gates did not complete college as they thought their resources would be better spent on an entrepreneurial endeavor.

Finally, I'd like to make this last point crystal clear...the world owes you (and I) nothing. We are not entitled to anything. We can, and should, however, contribute to society more than we take.

Is ROI only about money? Or, are there other returns from the time and effort and experience of college? I do not use my degrees directly in any job. I use them all the time because they contributed to who I like to be. I am wired for work in a non-career. My experiences prepared me to be a happy, self-directed lifelong learner and gave me assurance that my little contribution to diversity (being smart, smart-azz, and needing variety over career stability) is wonderful and worthy of a place in the larger world. Money well spent. !

Shop-et-al, you asked, "Is ROI only about money?" Usually, as most transactions are conducted at some point with currency. Such as the tuition payment transaction, the payroll transaction during a career, or the reimbursement / fee payment from mystery shopping. See how this comes full circle?

Learning how to learn was a biggie. Even if I never worked for money, I would be able to live in my personal world as I like to do. Knowing how to do what I need to do in support of being me, with or without work revenue, is a non-monetary value and outcome of my college experiences.

Here is another example. Giving money to the cause of clean water (building wells, cleaning up contaminated water, etc.) is not necessarily going to buy anyone an education that leads to employment. It will make lives better and give people an opportunity to live longer and better. People who actually do the work might be compensated, but the money that is intended for building or cleanup will not buy an education (unless someone has dammed the flow and has diverted money-- which is for another thread altogether).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2022 12:56AM by Shop-et-al.

I did a ROI when I took out my student loan, and I was spot on. However, I was working full-time at that point and knew the graduate degree would qualify me for extra $$ in income. Perhaps that is what is missing from today's experience. ROI is a good way to calculate cost of education.

I took out a loan to get additional education that qualified me for a greater variety of jobs and more income. It was intended to answer the perpetual question, "There must be more. Where is the more in career world?!" There never was the elusive more. There was more of the same: too much time at a job was always too much of a good thing.

But the loan and the experience are invaluable for other reasons. Never overlook those because money is not everything, and you will still need something in yourself if your money goes away...

Shop-et-al, here's another thought, ROE - Return On Effort...

One thing you may want to do in this environment is question your work and your work ethic. If your company's share price isn't going to go up or if you're not going to get paid or promoted no matter how hard you try, maybe you should take things easier?

Your Return On Effort is lower, so one way to boost your ROE is to stop and smell the roses more often. Or, to finally change your sub-optimal occupation and do something else more enjoyable with your life.

I always followed the principles of ESI - Earn, Save, Invest. It's easy (ESI), get it? But after living through multiple stock market downturns and recessions the economy was so terrible that it jolted me to change. Then in 2012, after I got an all-clear the economy wasn't going to relapse, I decided to take a leap of faith. I took a severance package in 2013. I achieved FIRE (Financial Independence Retire Early).

Bear markets, like we are now in once again, should make you question your purpose of working and saving so much. Because once money is stripped out of the equation, you're just left with your why. And your why better not be just about making money!

@maverick1 wrote:

Okay johnb974, I will be my normal polite self here. But you are opening yourself up for a poke in the eye. You state it's "forgiven debt." Who do you think is going to wipe out this debt? The loan processor? Nope. The college you attended? Nope. Student loan cancellation isn’t a magic wand that makes those loans disappear—they’ll have to be paid for somehow. But the question is: By whom? If the government were to forgive $10,000 in federal student loans per borrower, it’ll add hundreds of billions of dollars to the national deficit—and sooner or later the general public will have to foot the bill. Is that fair? Sounds like you didn't successfully complete ECON 101.

How many billions have politicians given to other countries that don't even pay taxes here and we don't even ask them to repay the money. Politicians treat other countries better than our own people.

johnb974, may I call you John? Look John, I saw you posted a similar reply earlier and elected not to answer you. I'm still not going to answer your comment directly.

Clearly you do not understand the dynamics of the economy, taxation, and world politics. You come across as a high school student looking for a hand-out. Please ask your question directly to your teacher. Respond back here with THEIR reply. Thanks in advance!

@maverick1 wrote:

johnb974, may I call you John? Look John, I saw you posted a similar reply earlier and elected not to answer you. I'm still not going to answer your comment directly.

Clearly you do not understand the dynamics of the economy, taxation, and world politics. You come across as a high school student looking for a hand-out. Please ask your question directly to your teacher. Respond back here with THEIR reply. Thanks in advance!

You never answer me on out politicians giving billions to other countries and never taxing them on it. We don't even ask them to pay it back. Yet you're upset over forgiving student loans. Were you bothered by the universities accepting the money and lining their own pockets?

Consumer access to information has increased since then. There is no reason for a student to be ignorant of college costs versus prospective wages. If they are smart enough to get into college, they are smart enough to figure out how to pay for college. In addition to grants which are not repaid, there are scholarships and work opportunities. One can work for a few years before starting college; work on campus; work off campus; work at multiple jobs after graduation; live an inexpensive life, and do whatever else clever people can think of to manage their debt.

@johnb974 wrote:

If you went to college from the 90's and past, it's a different world. You cannot compare paying student loans from the 70's, 80's and 90's to today. Wages have dropped since than.

If college was "worth it" then people should pay for it themselves.

-AA
-BA
-Credential
-MA

No college loans. No debt. Paid cash.

I guess I'm too young to know the answer to this, but I would like to see the documentation and support of the phrase "wages have dropped since then." I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around that and would just like some support of the comment, not just some opinions or one off examples.

Wages have increased, but purchasing power of that money has decreased. I surmise that the poster meant buying power, inflation, a recession or two, and other effects that make more money seem like less money.

@nixkit wrote:

I guess I'm too young to know the answer to this, but I would like to see the documentation and support of the phrase "wages have dropped since then." I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around that and would just like some support of the comment, not just some opinions or one off examples.

Do tell Tarantado. You certainly have a super power if you have ways to shorten narrative writing. Perhaps in another thread you will teach us all.

@Tarantado wrote:

I’m 10 years deep being a lead pipeline engineer who was part of the team that built multiple cross country crude oil pipelines, many metering facilities and tanks in the oil and gas industry. I’m now 1 of 4 engineers pioneering ESG certifications for a startup.

Considering that I am client-facing in my main career, meaning I can speak in basically any situation as needed, write to whatever I’m ask to do, able to adjust, etc., I strongly feel that I can definitely be overqualified for many shops. On the bright side, it also give me an advantage to increase my dollar per hour compared to the competition as in the past, I used today’s technologies to write programs to help automate report writing, especially for the long-winded narrative type of shops.

I am a person living in the land of extreme drought even when the state says we have no drought anymore like they did 8 years ago. I have perfected the art of the no bucket car wash. Perhaps eventually it will ruin my finish but I am doing my part to save water and everything else. My car is clean with the help of repurposed final rinse water from my washing machine which often is originally captured rain barrel water and clean rinse with captured water while my shower is warming up.
I and many others on this forum are doing jobs requiring highly qualified people but unfortunately the pay is not commensurate with the demands of almost perfect grammar and spelling, a decent brain, enough education to understand sometimes confusing guidelines, enough wherewithal to figure out how to handle tight spots etc etc, not to mention they have smart phones, printers , computers etc all paid for by their minimum wage or below mystery shop jobs.

@maverick1 wrote:

Madetoshop, 2 bucket car wash person you ask? Why it's quite simple. The typical layperson washes a car with a single bucket (soap and water). A real car enthusiast uses TWO buckets; one for soap and water, the other is plain water used to rinse the microfiber wash mitt, ensuring it's clean, BEFORE you return it to the soap and water bucket, then to your car finish. I'm and introvert, but I have learned to do some public speaking, mostly at my employers.

@sandyf wrote:

Do tell Tarantado. You certainly have a super power if you have ways to shorten narrative writing. Perhaps in another thread you will teach us all.

I’ve hoarded many, many years of reports over the years. If it’s a shop I regularly do, such as any A Closer Look shops that are narrative heavy, I essentially create a form with inputs such as name of servers/employees I’m evaluating, pronouns, Time In/Time Out, timings, etc. to essentially address each and every question in the narratives.

And based on the specific questions asked, I program in 3-5 minimum variants of sentences to describe how things happened based on the question. I also add in a “custom” field for unique additions to the narrative.

I randomize the outputs from the “database” of narrative options I essentially recycle so whatever is pumped out is unique each and every time.

This was my method of choice that worked well during my heavy Airport shopping days that required lots of narrative and was repetitive enough to warrant automation. And definitely the right choice for me to do considering the airport shopping lasted at least 5 years from memory and doing routes every month.

All is done and built within Excel.