@Shop-et-al wrote:

How absurd this whole thing has become. The stated, desired change demands have been satisfied. End of current need. Someone could declare a success. This is the signal to end the protests and protect against the possibility that masses of people will become inured to the messages and the entire concept of protesting. This would be a sensible tactic.But the protestors are still going. They even came here! Mind you, this is small town America and too wee to provide background scenery for the exclusives and their staged hate productions. (If they want to be on tv, a crew has to travel from afar to accommodate them. They actually are virulent, and there is no need to help them to go virtually viral by posting personally obtained recordings.) Nonetheless, several incidents of property damage and extreme hate messages were foisted onto my little part of the world. Think the thugs have moved on in search of more square footage to deface and more people to attempt to intimidate or enlist. I hope so.

And the person who thought it was a good idea to cause more problems than they solve and inveigle others to be complicit should be... well... someone will think of an appropriate consequence for that.

Meanwhile, I have to think of something to make for lunch.

Absurd? I had to spent a bit of time to really think about a fair, constructive response to this, so this doesn't get removed and not muted for being offensive.... So here goes:

What is absurd is that you GENUINELY believe that the protests are simply because of the isolated incident of George Floyd. How you're describing what appears to be YOUR perspective is telling that you don't truly understand the purpose of the protesting to begin with. If I'm mistaken, please clarify what YOU believe the purposes of the protest is. From your perspective, do YOU genuinely believe that just because Mr. Floyd's assailant are finally charged, the peaceful protests should end and all is good? If we are seeing eye to eye on this answer, then I apologize.

The fact that an uproar of the nation was needed to push for a proper investigation, an independent autopsy to confirm that the cause of death DOES have legal standing to use in court (unlike the county's autopsy that stated this caveat), etc. is what's absurd. Justice for one individual case of police brutality WITHOUT actual change in our policies and privileges we GIVE our offices is NOT 'success.' Until that happens, sad to say, the protesting from these 'thugs' you're lumping as a whole is going to continue.

.... Also, your use of the word 'thugs' is pretty revealing. Your focus are on CRIMINALS or what you're describing them as 'thugs,' are NOT the majority of protestors, who have been doing it in a PEACEFUL manner and within their rights. And not only that, criminals will continue to commit crimes REGARDLESS if there are protests or not. Focusing more on the criminals, and diverting the REASON for the protests in the first place is the wrong way to go about it, as it's apparent the message, peaceful or not, is the main reason why the cry for help and for change continues to be ignored. And if the messages are heard, the silences continues instead of actual change.

On a brighter note, my home in Denver's FINALLY making the first step forward in proposing change, likely as a reaction to the protests. Without the protests, I genuinely believe this would have never came up. It's obviously not official and now into law, but it's at least a step forward that hopefully can be pushed into law. The bill essentially REMOVES many privileges of our officers had here in my state including Qualified Immunity; however, the constant abuse of power without proper punishment really justifies this new bill propose. I hope this is actively trickling to the rest of the nation.

Got back from Costco and wiped everything down...stored away.

Thursday at 2PM (entrance).....3PM exit from the store.

The first 30 minutes were okay. Very few people (but more than the absolute most "empty" I've seen it). Two people/groups in every aisle it felt like.

Last 30 minutes were more crowded (but still nowhere near peak crowding I've seen in the past). You started to see three people/groups per aisle and the checkout area was crowded.

People all wore masks, although one lady (30's) had her's half-way off and was chatting with another woman. She walked by me and had her nose and lips all exposed and still chatting. I quickly pushed my cart away and turned my own head. I was slightly annoyed. Wanted to tell her: "Put that mask back on!" ...but didn't.

Main thing I noticed: inflation! Costco is still cheaper than elsewhere, but you definitely notice inflation on everything these days.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2020 08:29PM by shoptastic.

You cannot watch it and have any doubt at all that the perp should spend the rest of his life in prison, and that the other three need to do time as well.

@shoptastic wrote:

The much longer version is even harder to watch. It's so disturbing what happened.

I cannot bear to watch it. I have seen pictures of that thing kneeling on Mr. Floyd's neck. I am sick to my stomach. I am hoping time will heal. Today, peaceful, young protesters walked by my home and up and down every adjacent/nearby streets. Followed by the PD in cars. DDs ran out and offered bottles of water. So very, very sad.

OM stars. Knew it was coming but hoped it would be another week. Reporting physically to work Monday.

It is time for the protests to end now. ! The stated message and intention have been fulfilled by tptb. Four cops have been charged and are in custody. The legal system is in play. as the social pressure was intended to accomplish. The social system has done its work for George Floyd. Anything else is excessive pressure, the same issue that led to four cops' being charged with George Floyd's death. This hypocrisy hints at an underlying agenda. Well, puhleeeez. We have enough issues in our country and in our global network. Let the protestor and thugs claim success now that the legal system is in play and four cops are defendants. And then send them home. Disperse, already!

Why is this success not enough? What is the deep agenda, and why do we have to put up with excessive crap such as people blocking traffic, interfering with the conduct of business, and other aspects of life which have been known to help many people of all types to improve their lives. George Floyd had a tough row to hoe, but he was trying. How about protestors and thugs now use their demonstrated organizational skills to help individuals instead of insisting on a dubious "right" to harm the masses without interruption? Reasoning is so pesky. It is disruptive! They do not want to be interrupted in this way. After all, reasoning makes people think! Moreover, it enables them to look for a better way.

A better way is to disrupt the old pattern of protests followed by/accompanied by violence. This is an old game, and the rules are simple: get people all riled up, encourage them to give full vent to their emotions, and sometimes reward them for not thinking. Then, the stage is set for thugs. So stop this protesting, and change this unhelpful pattern. Replace that old game with ... and this what people should be thinking about for themselves. They can find other ways to use their voice that respect themselves and others.

When will people learn?! Pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft.

Difficult times. I was told that we live in some of the calmest times in the last 1000 years. No major wars. Loss of lives is not devastating the world. Then this pandemic happened, and suddenly world over there are protests, storms, political upheavals, economic collapse, unemployment and what not. If we pause and take a cue from nations which have recovered, perhaps we can also do better.

@panama18 wrote:

You cannot watch it and have any doubt at all that the perp should spend the rest of his life in prison, and that the other three need to do time as well.

Yes, I think second degree murder is what is going to happen. First degree is harder to prove, because you need to show he planned to do this. Legally, it could give him a chance to go free, so even those who want that charge realize they are safer going for second degree. *not a lawyer, but that's what I've heard*

@Shop-et-al wrote:

Why is this success not enough? What is the deep agenda

Yes, I think it's been excessive. But, again, I don't object to the rallying if safe and under normal circumstances, as the fight against police abuse is important. I only object, because we have a medical pandemic that makes such rallies dangerous (albeit social distancing has gotten better in the pictures I've seen of later gatherings).

I also don't think race was necessarily a factor. Although, it could have been. In recent days, video has surfaced of Tony Timpa, who was white and died in the same way. Many other cases often considered examples of racism are the same with white equivalents and where it's unclear race was a factor. I think simply seeing a person of color die or mistreated by a white person is not evidence of racism, but it could be (you'd have to know what was in the head of the perpetrator). Rather, it's 100% evidence of mistreatment. I would personally prefer to rally against police mistreatment in this case. For comparison, there are much clearer cases of police racism to rally behind than this case, such as a NY captain saying his officers should target black and Hispanic minorities over white and Asian people when looking for crime.*** That was a case where it's 100% clear race was an issue.

***eta: Oh, and speaking of secret shopper hidden recorders, that case was captured, because an officer had a hidden recording device! Caught his sargeant/captain (don't know technical term) saying this on audio!

Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2020 06:40PM by shoptastic.

Would you feel comfortable going back to salons, movie theaters, gyms, etc. if they looked like this?:
[www.cnbc.com]










I have to say, the casinos look desperate. There is no way that is 6-feet apart and people will be touching chips and cards a lot.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2020 06:25PM by shoptastic.

Salons: waiting as long as possible. I need a trim and a wee color, but that can wait until whenever.
Movie theaters: it's not their fault that movies are not what they used to be.
Casinos: don't use them. don't care about them.

Another thing to look for is possible inflation from the safety precautions. Businesses doing safety upgrades (even if only to avoid a possible lawsuit) may pass the costs along to customers.

For example, a casino that might choose to swap out card decks more quickly/frequently (to avoid retouching them), may lose profits on hands dealt per minute. Will they charge guests more to make up for that?

A hair salon that cleans more after each customer may also serve less people per day.

I can see it being a fine line. Charge too much and guests might not come. Charge too little and you have to eat the cost of the safety upgrades yourself as a business.

The world is reopening as cases spike up:
[www.nytimes.com]

@ wrote:

Governments, forced to choose between watching citizens die of the virus or watching them die of hunger, are loosening lockdowns.

“We go to bed without eating, giving nothing to our children,” said María Camila Salazar, 22, a mother of two who lives in Medellín, Colombia’s second-largest city.

Ms. Salazar and her family, like millions across Latin America, collect cardboard, glass and plastic for a living, selling it by the kilo. Their buyers closed amid the country’s lockdown, just as she gave birth to her second child

Let us all tell our loved ones how much we love them (you never know when the last day could be) and pray for the world in this time of deep suffering.

Went out with hubby and son last night for our first dine-in restaurant meal since early March. It was soooo good.

Tables have to be 6' apart, nothing on the tables, new glass/cup for each refill, disposable or wipeable menus, etc.

The interesting thing was the servers. Two had masks and gloves, one had gloves (no mask), one had a mask but no gloves and one had neither.

Read in the news that my state has experienced record numbers of visitors in the last two months. Officials expect these high numbers to continue.

This is not what I wanted! It is what tourists and protestors want. pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft.

curves are exploding in Arizona, Houston, Florida, and California

Houston might have to shut down.

Hospital capacity is maxing out in many areas getting a second/new wave.

What is it about those places that contributes to the high number of cases? We have record high numbers of visitors, but we also have our most precarious county recovering in greater numbers and small increases in other counties. What is the difference between places?!

I am not going to rehash all of this argument about George Floyd but to say I highly recommend every white person here read White Fragility, and do so with an open mind. I am also going to say that if you are a white person and you have not read MLK extensively you should refrain from using MLK quotes.

As for reopening, the little I have been out a lot seems to be back to normal. Restaurants and stores are full. Very few people wearing masks or socially distancing. The general attitude appears to be disdain for those who want to take precautions. I have been in all of 3 public spaces since March 16th (Walgreen's, Lowe's garden center, Sam's) and don't have much desire to go back right now.

Personally I am still isolating and will continue to do so. It is my expectation that with the number of incredibly promising vaccine trials underway one will be publicly available by early 2021 at the latest. It is my understanding that manufacturing of the most promising vaccines will be done during the last testing phase so they will be ready as soon as they are approved. I REALLY love to see the world and want to continue doing so for many, many years. Getting out right now is simply not worth the risk. I can deal with 1 year of isolation to ensure 40 more years of travel. My emergency fund will see me through the spring of 2021 (actually I could probably shut down absolutely everything but necessary spending and get all the way through 2021) and I am working with the assumption that we will have a vaccine and I can return to normal life at that time.

Here in Boise, people aren't social distancing anymore, hardly any people now wearing masks. I am a high risk person and I don't go out unless I have to. All most all of my shopping I still do curbside pickup. The state has gone to stage 4 today where they can have gatherings of 50 and above, movie theaters reopening, venues for concerts, etc. reopening.
Basically everything in the state can reopen as of today.
The news on Thursday night 6/11 were telling people that if you had been in downtown Boise on Saturday 6/6 in the area of a couple of streets or had been to 6 different bars that they named, to go get tested right away. They had found 5 people that had tested positive and 5 people as probable for the covid -19 had been in that area and in those bars that Saturday.

@bgriffin - I just read 2 vaccines are in phase 3 now.

[www.nytimes.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2020 02:04AM by kimmiemae.

@bgriffin: whom were you addressing? If it was the song lyric, that actually stems from an unrelated 1900 hymn that was adapted over the years for solidarity, starting with tobacco workers. Anyway, thinking about the Martin Luther King times of protests that often were followed by riots reminded me of how Sammy Davis Jr. and the cast of the Carol Burnett Show offered everything we ever really needed to get to the center of racism: all people of all colors are flawed. Always have been and always will be. But we all matter, and no one should matter more than anyone else. Lest anyone think I am being inflammatory, let them watch for themselves and see how they are affected. On the show, their skits spoofed politically correct social dialogue and 'Gone With the Wind' perfectly! They called it 'Went With the Wind' and skewered everyone equally. Ha! I thought of this after HBO announced their removal of the classic film 'GWTW'. These episodes made me laugh at myself and realize that we all are one in our ridiculousness and our various bigotries. We all have some bias! We should laugh at ourselves, regardless of our skin color-- which does not matter there. In fact, Dinah Shore of mixed heritage played Melody, the spoof of Melanie! But all these years later, who even remembers Sammy Davis Jr.? *sigh*

If this were shown at theaters, I would be the first to buy tickets on my own dime.

Gov. Northam has mandated mask wearing here, but it's about enforcement, enforcement, enforcement...it's not always enforced by business owners and I guess it's up to the customer whether they want to stay or not. . . or report the non-wearers and ask for enforcement (by staff and/or police).

I think police do a three warnings rule here if I remember correctly. They'll give two warnings to a person and the third becomes a criminal charge.

In Germany, they had HUGE fines (10,000 Euros) for non-mask wearing. I wish we did that here in the U.S. We'd save a bunch of lives I bet. Germany with a population of 83 million has had 8,867 deaths and 187K cases of COVID.

So many countries have done effective things to control the virus. ...Singapore...Australia...India...South Korea, etc. The U.S. sucks.

That we have citizens here who would have disdain for others wanting to wear masks and feel it is oppressive (when it is an attempt to save lives) is depressing and makes me think this country has gone down the tubes.

How many lives would be saved if we gave $10,000 fines for not wearing a mask in America?

@Shop-et-al wrote:

@bgriffin: whom were you addressing?

I quoted MLK in a post previously.

It's one that I believe has universal principles we can all understand and gain from.

I don't think it would be a deterrent or an incentive.Look at how many laws are on the books and how many other fines and punishments are not a deterrent to other crimes.

Picture it: it is a few minutes before 1 AM, I am sleepy, and I have forgotten to put on my mask.Usually, this is an oops that no one else on the planet ever sees. But on this one occasion... *flashing lights; a hand on a gun just to show some power and be a pita* "Get outta the car. Put your hands over your head. You got a mask in there? Yes? Well, that is even worse than a no. I'm gonna give you a citation, killer. This is ten thousand big ones that you will never see again." I rub the sleep out of my eyes and get back to work and wonder if I now have to give up my weenie job and go to jail because I cannot pay for the mask oops at... wait for it... a few minutes before 1 AM when usually no one even sees me... and if the pressure of prison would kill me even if I had no disease to spread to others and never earned the diss of 'killer'.....

But you never know. Some people might cave to that.

@shoptastic wrote:

How many lives would be saved if we gave $10,000 fines for not wearing a mask in America?

@Shop-et-al wrote:

What is it about those places that contributes to the high number of cases? We have record high numbers of visitors, but we also have our most precarious county recovering in greater numbers and small increases in other counties. What is the difference between places?!

Hard to say.

My guess is that part of it at least has to do with the "types" of individual responses from people in those states.

TX and FL have more aggressively pushed to open up, yet seem to have a greater % of people of the "I'm not wearing a dang mask." ilk.

This would be totally unscientific and just based purely on my impressions of people in those states and the types of stuff they've said on YouTube videos. ...I think Arizona might fit too. But, still, there are a ton of factors, so it's hard to tell. Population density, public transit, weather, etc. could all play a role.

Theoretically, we in this sparsely populated state should have a wild spike and spree now that tourists and protestors are here. But all that really happened is a local blip that is largely attributed to community spread by locals and the mentioned improvements elsewhere. Visitors are from within this state and many other places. Are they mostly healthy while we are mostly resistant? Who knows.

No fines for non-mask wearing in your car, Shopetal.

You don't have to resort to fines per se if you have a cooperative citizenry like in many parts of Asia, where mask wearing has not been an issue and somewhat the norm post-SARS or for air pollution protection for a lot of people.

This piece had some interesting comments on Western vs. Asian mask wearing that I'd noticed early on too:
[www.nytimes.com]

@ wrote:

Frédéric Keck, a French anthropologist specializing in pandemics, said that, in the West, mask-wearing was seen through an individual’s perspective.

“‘There’s a virus outside, so I wear a mask only to protect myself,’” Mr. Keck said, “whereas collective reasoning, in Asian societies, is to say, ‘I wear a mask to protect others.’”

The difference in mind-set is a crucial one given the nature of all but the highest-grade masks: Masks are believed to have some effectiveness at protecting the wearer, especially in crowded spaces, but are most effective at reducing the risks that the virus will be spread through coughing or talking. . .

But masks were also alien to Asia until it was struck by the SARS pandemic in 2003.

In Japan, after people got used to masks, they continued to wear them against seasonal allergies or to protect one another from germs. Unlike in other Asian nations, where many wear masks against air pollution, mask-wearing became widespread despite the absence of immediate threats.

I think those YouTube videos of Americans literally physically fighting and shooting each other over mask wearing policies must be big headscratchers for some Asian countries.

I get in and out of the car a few times and can be seen on some days/middles of the night. I could be reported for being mask-less and subject to an inane fine. I live in a place with some bad policing. A fine would fuel the gestapo-like environment that has arisen. This is the downside of here.

The significant point was that the fine would be unenforceable. Why fine someone if they are causing no harm? But how do you prove they are causing no harm without perpetrating another set of wrongs? Contact tracking should be illegal, banned, and punishable. Demanding the masks is no better than demanding that someone give up their religion, their clothing, or their dignity. It is all bad!

The judging of appearances is fear-based. Consider. If some people voluntarily wear a mask, they might be applauded even though they might be wearing a dirty mask and spreading from hands that touched the mask when they put it on. This is no better than not wearing a mask. It is just invisible. Someone who is not wearing a mask voluntarily might have had to rush out before the could wash their mask. If they are not sick, they might not be such bad people, eh? But someone might point a finger or turn them into the mask police, who cannot tell by looking which masks are clean.

A healthier approach is for each person to utilize health measures only for themselves or their children and leave everyone else alone. This would permit a needed social distancing between people that a six feet mandate does not address. It allows for personal responsibility and it might help to end the sick entitled sort of 'right' that some people seem to think they have to command others with whom they have no relationship and to whom they have no obligation. And since no one knows which masks are clean, why is anyone daring to demand that everyone should wear a mask?!

@shoptastic wrote:

No fines for non-mask wearing in your car, Shopetal.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2020 12:57AM by Shop-et-al.

@Shop-et-al wrote:

The significant point was that the fine would be unenforceable. Why fine someone if they are causing no harm? But how do you prove they are causing no harm without perpetrating another set of wrongs? Contact tracking should be illegal, banned, and punishable. Demanding the masks is no better than demanding that someone give up their religion, their clothing, or their dignity. It is all bad!

For clarity, in my example, I didn't think police should fine someone not wearing a mask when no one is around. Northam's executive order here, for example, requires masking wearing in a business, public transit, and where people are gathered. If no one is around, you can conceivably just not wear one.

Mask wearing rules, in this sense, aren't the same as taking away a person's freedom of religion, clothing choice, etc. I mean...you do have to wear clothing around your private parts in public. That is a law and I don't see it as impinging on our freedoms. Is there any rule that you find is NOT an infringement of your rights/freedom?

Don't want to get into politics too much more in this thread, but am I right that you're a libertarian?

What. Only a suspected libertarian would question something as basic as the cleanliness of masks?