Sweden did not isolate or shutdown as we did and they are doing better than us. So was it necessary to shut the country down as we did? With how many out of work and subsisting on starvation rations and getting ready to lose their homes or apartments and business' all because we tried and unproven experiment.

They are following the rules that wee set in place by their government and we are not. Just look at the people in bars and restaurants that choose not to follow the social distancing rules. Too many people think that we are infringing on their rights and yet over 88000 people have died,

And all of those people who are deliberately ignoring the social distancing guidelines are putting my healthcare family members at risk. Three in my family are busy tending to the absolute idiots who thought they were invincible, right up to the time they got seriously ill with Covid-19. Now my family members are afraid they will bring this illness into our homes, infecting those of us who are older and immune system compromised.

The shut down was worth it to me. I never liked being around people much so isolation has always been an impossible dream. Now it has come true. I actually get a bit anxious when they start talking about opening things up because I will have to get out there in the world again to work. I so don't want to. Not even a little bit and not because of the Rona.

What nobody talks about is the cost of NOT shutting down. Had there not been some level of social distancing, there would likely have been 10-20 times as many cases and who knows how many more deaths. By most estimates, not shutting down would have cost over 600,000 more lives lost to Covid-19. People in sick beds, people dead from the virus, people who can't work because they are grieving the loss of one or more loved ones; those costs are never measured when talk about the cost of the shutdown is mentioned. Those are real people, people like our neighbor, who just got out of quarantine, people like one of my daughter's friends who was on a vent for over a week before recovery began. People like the butcher at a local beef processing plant who was the sole support of his wife and four kids. Now he's dead.

There is no vaccine, nor will one likely be readily available for at least 12 months. Not nearly enough testing has taken place, nor does there seem to be any structured plan to do so. Many people flaunt social distancing rules. Their selfish behavior will exacerbate the situation; we may very well reach the unthinkable threshold of 100,000 American deaths by June 1. The upcoming Memorial Day weekend will be very telling, I'm afraid.

Executive branch leaders like Presidents, governors and mayors are supposed to gather information, then decide. You listen to the docs, then you turn to the economists, then you listen to business people large and small, then maybe consumer advocates and a few populists. Then you come up with a course of action that threads the needle.

That mostly hasn't happened. From the President on down, they are listening to the doctors and ignoring the rest. And the doctors are prescribing complete bed rest for the entire country. They are destroying America.

But people are not going to stand for it much longer. They are not going to continue to sit around and watch the bills pile up and their lives go down the drain. At some point the pols will wise up, out of self preservation if nothing else, and realize that if they don't open the country the citizens will. Because if you want to lose the soccer mom vote, just tell them that the soccer kids aren't going back to school in the fall.

I'd rather be broke than dead.....or watching through a hospital window while a loved one dies. Just about everything except life itself can be brought back to what it once was. Dead is final.

@panama18 wrote:

Because if you want to lose the soccer mom vote, just tell them that the soccer kids aren't going back to school in the fall.

Although I am of the "safer-at-home" mindset, I respect your well-stated comments. If there is no plan to allow schoolchildren to return to their classrooms--SAFELY--this fall, there will be anarchy.

Initially, I believed that shutting down schools until at least fall of 2021 would provide a safety measure for everyone involved with education at those levels. Thinking of specific schools and difficulties with distancing, frequent-enough hand washing, and other concerns for some students, I felt this was good.

Then, I found out that some students soar with at-home and online learning while others might not even show up for school. When I remembered that some parents are natural teachers and others have a different set of gifts, I knew that I should formulate a new sort of opinion.

Now, I believe that capable and financially surviving parents who can teach, should handle homeschooling for multiple kids (especially those who will not learn anything at home otherwise). Can this work? Mmm? Should I be tomatoed? Definitely... It is so intrusive! (And yet, it makes sense to identify alternate teachers...)

@Opanel wrote:

@panama18 wrote:

Because if you want to lose the soccer mom vote, just tell them that the soccer kids aren't going back to school in the fall.

Although I am of the "safer-at-home" mindset, I respect your well-stated comments. If there is no plan to allow schoolchildren to return to their classrooms--SAFELY--this fall, there will be anarchy.

I am decently educated, yet if you said to me one day, "OK, you're homeschooling now" I promise you, the child would not get anywhere near the education he/she needs and deserves. Yet that's what they've done to parents. No warning, no preparation, few if any resources, sink or swim. These kids are being shortchanged. They will lose half a year this year, yet still be assumed to know the material. And if these two docs get their way, it will continue into next year.

I too would rather be broke than dead, but the choice isn't that stark. There is a middle ground, which varies from state to state and from place to place within states. The lockdown was a good thing in the beginning but we're past that. It's just too bad there's no way to shame the irresponsible and inconsiderate into caring about the people they come into contact with.

@2stepps wrote:

Sweden did not isolate or shutdown as we did and they are doing better than us. So was it necessary to shut the country down as we did?

Actually, Sweden's per capita COVID-19 death rate is significantly higher than that of the US.

In Sweden the death rate per 100,000 of population is 36.38 while in the US the death rate per 100,000 of population is 26.81. I would say that speaks volumes. And what will I be doing to keep from getting infected? Staying home, carefully using a mask and other precautions when I go out.

I have to assume that even if a vaccine was available tomorrow for free for anyone in the country willing to join the line, there would be many who would declare it their Constitutional Right not to get vaccinated. If there are enough of them we will not achieve 'herd immunity'. So perhaps it is best that these folks get their immunity by self-exposure and illness. After all, their chance of survival is better here than in Sweden.

I think Panama is right in that the approach varies from state to state and from place to place within states. I think the key point other than being dead vs. broke is whether the locale's healthcare system can manage the number of patients needing hospitalization and care. I am from Tennessee which was early to reopen and so far I don't see major concerns. However, if you look at New York City with a population comparable to the country of Sweden, you can see why it was necessary to fully lock down that city to get a handle on the poor overworked healthcare system. IF citizens would be smart and socially distance and wear masks when possible, I think we can move forward. Don't forget that this type of virus re-emerges with a vengeance when fall comes, and we need to be prepared.

Thanks for the update on Sweden. I was wondering how their approach would work out for them.

I wonder if there is some sort of bell curve for at-home learners who are forced into this due to Covid-19. How many are thriving (likely because they are intrinsically motivated), how many are about the same such that it does not matter where they attend school, and how many truly learn better at school than elsewhere (for whatever reason or reasons)? If I were a schoolkid today, I would have infinite fun with my strong subjects! And, I would do this when it is best for me. Can you say, it just became okay to read all night? But then there is my challenging subject. Would I run? Scream? Cry? Hire a genius for Zoom tutorials? How is each family handling these situations? Where are their successes and their ongoing or unexpected challenges? Are parents gaining confidence in their ability to administer specific lessons to their kids? Are kids accepting their parents as alternate teachers? Inquiring minds want to know.

How do you quantify "better than us"?

Unfortunately, our health care system can't compare to Sweden's.

Our obesity rates (and other underlying complicating factors, like high blood pressure), is one of the highest in the world. Sweden's, at about 6%, is one of the lowest.

You may be comparing apples and oranges.

@2stepps wrote:

Sweden did not isolate or shutdown as we did and they are doing better than us. So was it necessary to shut the country down as we did? With how many out of work and subsisting on starvation rations and getting ready to lose their homes or apartments and business' all because we tried and unproven experiment.

I am a single mom who is grateful to be employed full time at a job that has easily translated into work from home. I consider myself well educated and I would love to be able to try out my hand at home schooling but there is just. no. way. I have to work. I don't have the option to not work and I don't have any time during the day to even check in with my fifth grader beyond a quick cruise by his room to say I love you and make sure he is not in tears. And he has been in tears, several times - he misses the way that things used to be. We are both hugely social and this is super hard to be isolated for nine weeks.

School for him is online Google classroom with posted work sheets and 45 minutes a week (yes a WEEK) of Zoom instruction that he school district does. He's 11. There is absolutely no way he is getting even remotely a decent education, not to mention the lack of social/emotional growth due to the fact that I am the only person he interacts with at all (no friends, no other adults, no nothing). I do think the shutdown was necessary to prevent our healthcare systems from being overwhelmed. I am in a state that has already said it is "highly likely" that school will not resume in the Fall. Of course I do not want anyone to die, but I also want what's best for my child. And this isn't it.

If our school district doesn't go back in the Fall, I will be looking at options like moving to another district that is back in school or private schooling locally if that's an option.

@Kenzie wrote:

@2stepps wrote:

Sweden did not isolate or shutdown as we did and they are doing better than us. So was it necessary to shut the country down as we did?

Actually, Sweden's per capita COVID-19 death rate is significantly higher than that of the US.

Adding in that while Sweden is technically open, you also have to consider the hit to their economy to see who's really going out, because all but one of the Swedes I know are opting to shelter at home voluntarily. My ex is Swedish, so I have a fair number of friends there. The one who's maintaining his previous social lifestyle (her brother) has been shunned by most of his friends, and is not allowed to visit with his family, for fear of infection. It's certainly not business as usual there....

That is also how you get your Darwin Award!

@Flash wrote:

I have to assume that even if a vaccine was available tomorrow for free for anyone in the country willing to join the line, there would be many who would declare it their Constitutional Right not to get vaccinated. If there are enough of them we will not achieve 'herd immunity'. So perhaps it is best that these folks get their immunity by self-exposure and illness. After all, their chance of survival is better here than in Sweden.

wow...a lot of varied and valid opinions!

I must admit, I went into this thinking that the precautions taken for COVID-19 were overkill, like other superflus originating in Asia. My concern came mostly for my elderly, active parents who "didn't go out unless they wanted to take a walk. "

@sestrahelena wrote:

The shut down was worth it to me. I never liked being around people much so isolation has always been an impossible dream. Now it has come true. I actually get a bit anxious when they start talking about opening things up because I will have to get out there in the world again to work. I so don't want to. Not even a little bit and not because of the Rona.

Thank You! I feel the exact same way. Had my fill of people at the age of 37.

MickyB, I would think that your school district is working feverishly to figure out how to improve instruction for next year if they are making kids stay home again. School districts were completely caught off guard with this and are not set up for home school situations on such a large scale. The problem is, nobody can tell them exactly what to prepare for, so they are spending time and resources planning for every scenario, not just one.

MickyB,

The district here is planning 'blended' education which will being in fall of 2020.

Now, i mention a shop type that others might remember. Even if you did not do these shops, please know that one type of phone shop does/did involve calling a dedicated, comprehensive online education company and listening to a presentation regarding services and enrollment procedures. I think they offer all school grades and a socialization component. A designated adult can be appointed by the parent to supervise the lessons. I don't know if this would work for you, but it is one of several options to think about as more information becomes available about what is available to you locally.

There are so many educational things you can order on-line! Age/grade appropriate. Delivered right to your door. Find out what your 11 year old is interested in, and urge him to explore that. My 11 year old was fascinated by dinosaurs; I had kits delivered that he could use to build the skeletons, with all sorts of educational support materials. He kept those dinosaurs he built -- and he's almost 40 now! There are educational kits for space exploration, science, history, you name it.

Good luck.

@2stepps wrote:

Sweden did not isolate or shutdown as we did and they are doing better than us. So was it necessary to shut the country down as we did? With how many out of work and subsisting on starvation rations and getting ready to lose their homes or apartments and business' all because we tried and unproven experiment.

Korea has 50 million+ people and less than 300 deaths.

I wish we'd been more aggressive with effective testing early on and isolating people. Perhaps we could have gotten their result or closer to it. They had an effective test WITHIN ONE WEEK.

The Trump administration could have used the WHO offered German-made tests that the entire world was using, but did not take them. Instead, we wanted to manufacture our own test kits. . . . .We wasted weeks with making faulty U.S.-made test kits and even now we don't have the level of widespread testing of a South Korea (although, much better than before).

I don't like that tremendous economic damage was done, but I think that we'd have had tremendous economic damage either way. It's interesting to speculate/argue which route would have been better/worse for health and the economy. Without a lockdown, the health situation would have been MUCH MORE SCARY. We had 1,800+ Americans die the other night after the U.S. mostly being in some type of shelter-at-home order - albeit some states were more lax and lots of people have been disobeying orders. Without that, perhaps you'd have had 5,000+ death days.

People would have stayed home voluntarily and that would have hurt the economy too. I'm not sure economic pain could have been avoided. The question seems more of scale to me. Some countries like S. Korea do seem to have done much, much better. I think the U.S. could have done better.

Had the USA not gone into gov-ordered lockdown, small businesses would likely have been shut down anyway: A good percentage of their owners, employees, and customers would have been dead, sick, and/or traumatized from covid19, rendering the business non-functional.

As for Sweden--in addition to having a higher per capita death rate than the USA, the population there IS social distancing. It is just not gov-ordered. They also have universal health care, so a lot of the confusion about what to do or where to go if one gets sick in the USA does not apply to Sweden. Imagine how much worse their numbers might have been had their health care system been as dysfunctional as ours.

@shoptastic wrote:

The Trump administration could have used the WHO offered German-made tests that the entire world was using, but did not take them. Instead, we wanted to manufacture our own test kits. . . . .We wasted weeks with making faulty U.S.-made test kits and even now we don't have the level of widespread testing of a South Korea (although, much better than before).

Too bad that this is not even true. The WHO never offered the tests to the US. They made that clear. Here it is from CNN. You can also find it from a dozen other sources.

[www.cnn.com]

(CNN)As the United States struggled to launch testing for the novel coronavirus using kits developed by the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the World Health Organization shipped hundreds of thousands of tests to countries around the world.

No discussions occurred between WHO and the CDC about providing tests to the United States, WHO spokesperson Tarik Jasarevic told CNN on Tuesday, and WHO did not offer coronavirus tests to the CDC.
The United States, Jasarevic confirmed, doesn't ordinarily rely on WHO for tests because the US typically has the capacity to manufacture its own diagnostics.

@shoptastic wrote:

The Trump administration could have used the WHO offered German-made tests that the entire world was using, but did not take them. Instead, we wanted to manufacture our own test kits. . . . .We wasted weeks with making faulty U.S.-made test kits and even now we don't have the level of widespread testing of a South Korea (although, much better than before).

Many folks who watched the March 16 presidential primary debate believe this because Joe Biden stated: "The World Health Organization offered the testing kits that they have available and to give it to us now. We refused them. We did not want to buy them.” This has been debunked as totally false by numerous sources. Here's one:

[khn.org]

@roflwofl wrote:

@shoptastic wrote:

The Trump administration could have used the WHO offered German-made tests that the entire world was using, but did not take them. Instead, we wanted to manufacture our own test kits. . . . .We wasted weeks with making faulty U.S.-made test kits and even now we don't have the level of widespread testing of a South Korea (although, much better than before).

Many folks who watched the March 16 presidential primary debate believe this because Joe Biden stated: "The World Health Organization offered the testing kits that they have available and to give it to us now. We refused them. We did not want to buy them.” This has been debunked as totally false by numerous sources. Here's one:

[khn.org]

Exactly. Note my post above.
This was circulating on facebook too. Sheeple.

Businesses and Schools in Sweden voluntarily shut down. I've seen pictures of people out and they are social distancing and aren't sitting around in groups. I would assume that the number of businesses allowing people to gather in crowds is extremely small. As a whole, they have a better concept of coming together for the better good.

Friends living in Italy were also confined to their homes for what I believe was almost 45 days and they said no one they knew complained. Local businesses were dropping off food for them. The government also intervened and halted both rent and mortgage payments.

I also have friends who are expats in the UAE and they are on a forced shut down, but even then, the government is offering them a lot of assistance. There are other areas of the UAE that are a little more open but no one is allowed outside after 6 or 7 pm. They all know that it's time to go indoors once the sirens go off. These friends had the opportunity to return home on flights arranged by the government and their companies, but chose to stay there because they knew Americans would not agree to government intervention. They do not regret their decision and have cancelled their annual summer trips back home.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2020 07:12AM by AnonymousGirl.